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You can, however there are other exercises I would be doing as well.

@@PuptoPerfection thank you so much! I started him on the engage disengage program. It’s been working well! Also figured out he’s fine with other people and dogs outside of our normal neighborhood. So I am starting to think it’s a territorial thing

potentially. however dogs are very contextual learners and the environment very much affects their behavior. it could also be that the dog has rehearsed the behavior enough in a certain environment that it's just become a habit.

@@PuptoPerfection that makes sense. Just in case it is that. I’ve started this habit During the day that we would go upstairs. Tune out all the noise outside and play calming deep sleep music with his bed and blanket. And soon after maybe an hour we would take a 5 minute walk to adjust. It’s been changing his behaviors although I noticed he doesn’t mind people doing things on their own lawn. Such as washing their cars. If they turn onto the street for a quick up and down walk. He gets a little more stressed but I’m making sure that he’s reassured and gets treats after if he behaves better and better I make sure that if we’re doing desensitization on our lawn and someone’s walking past us. We move up to the porch for space. After that I say look at me

Hi! I’m also a trainer for a local rescue and I’ve heard this line of thinking with e collars a lot. My concern with it is that comparing it to a clicker ignores the fact that most dogs will consider the vibration or shock to be much more intrusive than a simple click - making it more aversive than a clicker. So even if we pair the vibration/shock/sound with a positive reinforcer (eg a cookie), it is acting as a positive punisher. If we think about why it interrupts a “bad” behavior, often times this is because the sensation from the collar is aversive/painful/intrusive enough to “stop” them from engaging in the behavior and recall to you. These are just my thoughts, and I’m sure the poster knows much much more!

Great question! I am a crossover trainer, meaning when I first started training I used methods and tools that relied on positive punishment but I no longer do. As such, I no longer use tools like e-collars, prongs, slip leads, etc. And there are a lot of reasons why. Firstly, there has been some research done on the combined use of positive punishment and positive reinforcement and the data shows that dogs in this group also showed higher rates of stress related behaviors and also had higher cortisol levels in conjunction with training. You can read one such study here: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7743949/ My view is that we, as humans, are the ones that choose to share our lives with a dog. We are the ones who go seek out a breeder and purchase a puppy, send in an application to adopt a dog from a rescue, or apply to be foster homes. We decide what the dog eats, when they go to the bathroom, how much exercise they get, what forms of enrichment they have access to, what environments they go to, etc etc. When it has been documented that training with positive punishment, even combined with positive reinforcement, can produce negative outcomes that are not seen to the same degree in groups of dogs trained without the use of positive punishment, then I feel it is in the dog's best interest to train them in a way that is the kindest to them... because they did not choose to come into our lives. We chose them. The other reasons I don't use positive punishment in training, specifically tools designed to work through the aversion of punishment (the dog doesn't pull on the leash in order to avoid the unpleasant sensation of a prong collar or a slip lead tightening around their neck or a correction from an e-collar; the dog recalls to its handler in order to avoid continuing to experience a stim from an e-collar, etc etc) is because, quite simply, it's not necessary! There are entire countries where prongs and/or e-collars are illegal. Those countries still have dogs with behavioral concerns, they have off leash dogs, they still have working dogs, they still have dogs that participate in a variety of sports at a high level... and they get on just fine without those tools. That only further illustrates that they are not necessary. So if I can train a dog without them, why would I choose to use them? The issue that I take with the proposal that a stim from an e-collar or correction from a slip lead is just a cue that the dog responds to the same as they would an audible cue or a hand signal is that that statement is a false equivalency. We don't know that the dog feels pain or discomfort from the e-collar, for example, unless they are obviously showing signs of pain. But that doesn't mean that it isn't painful or uncomfortable for them. Certain dog breeds have been genetically selected to be able to do their jobs even if they're experiencing pain or discomfort, but that doesn't mean the feeling isn't there. So again, if the premise is that the stim from the e-collar is just another cue, why choose to use a cue that could also potentially be physically uncomfortable for the dog? Why choose a tool that has been proven to have negative consequences for that animal? In this video I talk about how training doesn't happen in a vacuum, and that's true! We don't know for sure that the dog might not start associating the stim from the e-collar with the presence of other dogs and therefore develop some unpleasant feelings about other dogs that they then might try to communicate in a way we don't like... so why risk that? Why not just teach a cue that doesn't have those risks? For recalling at a distance, I've had great success with whistles. But there are also management strategies that can be put in place too to make using such tools unnecessary that do not negatively impact the quality of life for the dog or their human family. I know that in the last 6-7 years I have not touched a prong collar, or an e-collar, or used a slip lead as a corrective tool (I have used them on my own dogs but solely for sports where they have to run naked to get them in and out of the ring quickly, and I reinforce them for walking nicely so they don't choke themselves), or instructed any of my clients to make use of positive punishment... and we have still been able to achieve results. And quickly! The myth that positive reinforcement takes longer is just simply not true. If you're doing it right, behavior change happens fast! So again, if we can achieve the same behavioral outcomes without using tools or methods that can cause the dog to feel pain, discomfort, or fear... then why are we using them?

Also! Just chiming in that it sounds like we're confusing markers and cues a little bit. The clicker should not be used as a cue for the dog to do anything, it is a marker to let the dog know that reinforcement is coming. It doesn't ask for a specific behavior. Just pointing that out as I feel it further illustrates my point that equating the stim from an e-collar with a clicker is not accurate, even if the stim from the e-collar is paired with a treat. The stim from the e-collar, in your example, is being used as a cue for the dog to do something. Which is not what a clicker is used for (or at least, it SHOULDN'T be used for that... I guess theoretically you could train the sound of the clicker as a cue for the dog to do a behavior, but then you couldn't also use it as a marker system in training anything else because that would just be confusing to the dog).

@PuptoPerfection Is it still considered punishment if it's not used as a consequence? Totally agree, I use it as a cue, not as a marker. However, I've never used it as a consequence. It's used during the command, not before or after, as a way to associate a "feeling" to a command. This allows me to communicate a recall when she's off leash and out of range of sound either due to wind, etc. (We only go off leash in remote areas, responsibly. I'm a helicopter mom 😅) I see it like a tap on the shoulder, letting her know mom's talking. I should mention - I use it at a very low stim and have never used a shock collar. I set it to the lowest point she would feel it, but notbing further. It has 127 levels, so I'm able to fine-tune the feeling to exactly my needs. The ecollars with only 10 setting are fucked up in my opinion. A 1 setting on a garmin is equivalent to a 11 on mine - i usually train at a 5. If she fails a command, we'd take a step back and go back to fundamentals using positive reinforcement. I don't punish her with the stim because if she doesn't listen, it's because i set her up for failure. We'd take a step back a stage if necessary. All commands are taught with purely positive reinforcement first. The ecollar was only introduced as a safe guard to her already reliable recall. In case of emergency type of thing. I've never had to use it in such a way, but i know it's there if i need it (helicopter mom). My philosophy for dog training is, "I want my dog to be excited to do something right, not scared to do something wrong." So far, that mentality still applies to this application of the ecollar, no? This is why I see this application specifically as negative reinforcement. Does that make sense, or am I still off base? I do agree with you on how most people use ecollars. In-fact, I think they should be regulated at a minimum. Compulsion training is outdated and better methods have certainly arisen.

@Bellesweetie I use an ecollar, not a shock collar. It does have a vibrate setting, but it's definitely more uncomfortable than the stim, so i dont use it. I've never used the collar as a consequence. It's used during the command, not before or after, as a way to associate a "feeling" to a command. The poster correctly pointed out i use it as a cue, not a marker, like a clicker. However, this cue allows me to communicate a recall when she's off leash and out of range of sound either due to wind, etc. (We only go off leash in remote areas, responsibly. I'm a helicopter mom 😅) I see it like a tap on the shoulder, letting her know mom's talking. I should mention - I use it at a very low stim and have never used a shock collar. I set it to the lowest point she would feel it, but nothing further. It has 127 levels, so I'm able to fine-tune the feeling to exactly my needs. The ecollars with only 10 setting are fucked up in my opinion. A 1 setting on a garmin is equivalent to a 11 on mine - i usually train at a 5. Humans wouldn't feel it at all until an 18. If she fails a command, we'd take a step back and go back to fundamentals using positive reinforcement. I don't punish her with the stim because if she doesn't listen, it's because i set her up for failure. We'd take a step back a stage if necessary. All commands are taught with purely positive reinforcement first. The ecollar was only introduced as a safe guard to her already reliable recall. In case of emergency type of thing. I've never had to use it in such a way, but i know it's there if i need it (helicopter mom). My philosophy for dog training is, "I want my dog to be excited to do something right, not scared to do something wrong." So far, that mentality still applies to this application of the ecollar, no? This is why I see this application specifically as negative reinforcement. Does that make sense, or am I still off base? I do agree with you on how most people use ecollars. In-fact, I think they should be regulated at a minimum. Compulsion training is outdated and better methods have certainly arisen. Most people use it as a "you didn't do what I said so I'm going to zap you" and that's super fucked. I've built a trusting, loving relationship of mutual respect with my dog. The "be the alpha" type shit is outdated and wrong. Thanks for your insight! I love the discussion and appreciate others input :)

These are all really fantastic questions! I might have to make a separate video to go in depth with them... Release word ("break" for me, or whatever word you'd rather use): I teach this when they're puppies. To start I usually say "break" and then toss a cookie so they associate the word with moving away from me. Since this video, I have actually switched to telling my dogs "go sniff" when we're outside rather than using my release word. When I got my golden retriever, he had a habit of immediately trying to re-engage with me if I used the word "break" and would get frustrated if I ignored him. Which led to mouthing at me, jumping, trying even harder to get my attention basically. By putting "go sniff" on cue, it gave him a directive. I use "go sniff" allllllll the time nowadays! Which leads me to... Putting other behaviors on cue: essentially I put the dog in a situation where they're likely going to do the behavior anyway, and right before they do I say the cue. So for go sniff, I'll lead the dog up to something sniffy (a fire hydrant, a corner in my neighborhood where all the dogs pee, etc etc) and right before we reach it, I will stop and call their name. When they look at me, I say "go sniff!" and walk over to the sniffy thing. Same thing with chasing birds or squirrels. This only works if you notice it first, but it's still useful. I will ask my dog for a behavior (usually something easy like looking at me) and then I will point out the critter and tell them "chase it" or "get the bird" or whatever cue you want to use. If the dog isn't right next to you, then encourage them to come to you and THEN say your cue and point out the critter. Now as to your question on if this is negatively reinforcing or positively reinforcing. If you're following a proper management protocol to set your dog up for success (this could be a whole video on what this actually means because it's so much more than just "put your dog on a longline so they can't run away" and should also include proactive training like classically conditioning their name as a cue, reinforcing engaging with you in a variety of ways and in a variety of settings that are easier for your dog to handle, actually teaching these marker cues before using them "for real," etc etc etc) and you're timing things correctly, then you will be using positive reinforcement. Why? Because if you've done all the proactive things, and you're using proper management, then it should look something like this: 1) Dog is somewhat close by to you (I would say no more than 15 feet away in the beginning stages of teaching a recall) sniffing the ground 2) You spot a critter 3) You call your dog's name and because you've done all the good proactive stuff, they look at you 4) You praise them and encourage them to come to you 5) When they do, you point out the critter and encourage them to go chase it Congrats! You have just used the premack principle to positively reinforce your dog for coming to you. They did a behavior, they got a consequence that was pleasurable to them. Chasing prey isn't something I would necessarily encourage with all dogs, however. And if that is an issue I would highly recommend looking into predation substitute training. And as far as not using the longline to drag your dog in- don't! However if you move, your dog will likely move. A common issue I see is the human calling the dog while standing stark still, and when the dog looks at them and the human continues to not move, the dog is less likely to come to you. If you get your dog to look at you and then you move (I usually recommend backing up vs turning around and walking away) your dog is going to be much more likely to come to you. If all else fails, stand there and slowly reel in whatever slack they give you until they do check in and then have a party for the fact that they acknowledged your existence, and then reevaluate the situation your dog is in and ask if they are actually ready for it or if maybe we need to arm them with some more skills first before they can handle being responsive in that environment again. Remember: your dog is doing the best they can with the information you have given them, in the environment you have chosen to put them in. They did not pick up the car keys and drive themselves to the park! We did. So it's up to us to make sure our dogs are given the skills to be successful in that environment first. We need to make sure they can safely tread water with their floaties on before we toss them in the deep end and expect them to swim.

Happy to help!

Great to hear!

Thank you! ◡̈

Skye can be reactive to people approaching her as well as other dogs. The fact that she looks so well behaved in the video is due to extensive training on this issue, but she can still struggle with barking in certain situations. This video showcases how I’ve been working on her reactivity, and ways you can set a reactive dog up to be successful while working through behavior modification to address reactivity.

@@PuptoPerfection thank you for explaining. I find this a unique way and seems to work great for training. Again thank you and thank you for taking the time to train our furrys

You're welcome!

congrats on the new puppy!

It's helpful to see the mechanics of what the human is doing absent of trying to wrangle a dog. This is why I encourage people to practice leash handling skills without their dogs first, so when they actually need them in the moment they have the muscle memory to be more successful. But if you look through my channel or especially if you scroll through my Instagram, you can find lots of content of me coaching dog owners through handling their own reactive dogs. Hope that helps!

trouble is finding a client who's comfortable with it. I've unfortunately had a lot of requests to not record training sessions lately 😕

I often will give my "perfectly trained dogs" over to my clients to practice certain training exercises with. This gives the humans a chance to learn the mechanics of the exercise themselves without the pressure of also trying to teach the exercise to their dog simultaneously. This is a concept I have taken from the agility ring and applied to working with pet dogs. In agility we walk our courses without our dogs and work through our handling plans by ourselves before we attempt it with our dogs. We need to feel confident in what we're doing first before we can ask the dog to do it. If we don't know what we're doing, then how the hell is the dog going to know what to do?! So yes, these obviously non-reactive dogs are a good demonstration for the mechanics of these leash handling skills. It would be hard to see if the dog was actively flinging at the end of their leash barking their heads off, no?

thank you!

you're very welcome!

I struggled with recall with my GSD too, been there! But there's hope! Now I know that it was mostly my lack of knowledge and skills that made it so hard. I wish there was more resources available when he was a youngster, but that's partly why I make content now. I'm making what I wish I could've seen when I was first starting out!

Start in your house with no other distractions around. Don’t go too far away to start. Try moving away from your dog quickly. Spend some more time doing find it & nose touches first to build value in your dog staying near you.

awesome!

If you start somewhere boring where there's no other stimuli for your dog to look at, especially if your dog is on leash, they will look at you pretty quickly! Always start in familiar environments where there are as few distractions as possible- like your living room or basement- when teaching a new behavior or a new exercise. Once the dog is 100% in that environment, try a different familiar environment with few distractions, like a different room of the house where the dog doesn't usually train. Then try a familiar environment with slightly more distractions, like your back yard or in the driveway. Slowly work up to newer, less familiar environments with more distractions. If your dog is still struggling to look at you, that's a sign that the environment is too challenging and they do not have enough practice to nail it yet. You have to go slow to go fast! ;)